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Wrap
Text File
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1991-08-27
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104KB
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2,868 lines
This is a fairly complete transcript of some discussions held back in
October and November 1990 about being a Nantucket third party software
developer, Tom Rettig's departure from the Clipper world, and finally,
the genesis of the Nanforum Toolkit.
Unfortunately, some of the messages were'nt saved. If you feel like
something is missing, it probably was left out. That kind of bums me
out because one of the missing messages was mine and I was particularly
proud of that particular one. Ah well.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
#: 97406 S9/Third-Party
29-Oct-90 17:35:02
Sb: #DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: All
In the tradition of Steve Klingler's discussion on color usage, I'm kind of
interested in hearing from third party developers. Tom Rettig placed his
library in the public domain recently, saying in an accompanying press
release:
"I have no intention of using or supporting Dbase products
that lack an open architecture, and Clipper's change from
a Dbase dialect into a C-like language makes it, too,
undesirable for me to continue using or supporting...
He goes on to state that the Clipper third-party market is limited, and is
"...controlled by Dbase software vendors who vacillate between
greed and hostility toward their own third-party vendor community.
Incompetence by both Ashton-Tate and Nantucket surrounding their
dBASE IV and Clipper releases were very costly. Nantucket's
international marketing of Clipper Tools One and Two, and their
decision to OEM a competitor's Help software, left few golden crumbs
for me in their overcrowded aftermarket."
This is fairly strong language; I would like to hear what some of the other
3rd party developers think of what he says.
There are 2 Replies.
#: 97415 S9/Third-Party
29-Oct-90 19:03:13
Sb: #97406-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: ROGER DONNAY 73227,1225
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
In my opinion, Tom's comments show an emotional rather than objective reaction
to Clipper 5.0. On one hand he says he wants an open architecture while on
the other he says he wants 'dbase dialect' support. Clipper 5.0 has provided
both in a better concept than anything else previously offered. Nantucket has
opened MORE aftermarket opportunities with 5.0 than any other development
language offers. I am extremely excited about the new opportunities. Tom is
still bitter about Nantucket's decision to offer a competing library product
and also in their choice to use Norton Guides instead of HELP with Clipper
5.0.
As a third-party developer, I too would like more support from Nantucket, but
I realize more and more every day that the best thing that Nantucket can do
for me is not interfere with me rather than to go out of their way to support
me. Nantucket's snafu with Clipper Tools One was a bitter lesson for them,
but I believe they learned the lesson and have more than compensated for it by
opening up 5.0 to more aftermarket opportunities than ever before.
Tom had unrealistic expectations of Nantucket. He wanted them to woo him and
treat him like a star as did Ashton-Tate for so many years. They are not
capable of this kind of relationship with third-party vendors because they are
technology-driven more than market-driven. I like this because it allows much
more opportunities for me and other "average, non-star" developers.
#: 97417 S9/Third-Party
29-Oct-90 19:08:29
Sb: #97406-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
I thought that was a fairly silly statement and almost told him so. Unlike
Nantucket, which seems to cater to third-party vendors at the expense of their
customers, Fox *will* add all those neat little utilities to the language as
soon as there's a clamor for them. So if he thought he had it tough then, wait
til he sees what the future holds.
Third-party developers should realize that there's a window of opportunity
that won't remain open forever, or at least shouldn't.
Additionally, regarding Tom's comments, the obvious question is, what's he
done lately? It'll do him little good to get a jump start if all he's going
to provide for FP 2.0 is fluff like that which is in the LIB he uploaded here.
I expect that most, if not all, third-party developers that now support
Clipper to also support FP 2.0. Why wouldn't they?
Paul (not a 3PD, but I thought I'd get my 2CW in anyway <g>)
#: 97430 S9/Third-Party
29-Oct-90 19:57:41
Sb: #97415-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: ROGER DONNAY 73227,1225 (X)
What you said about the "non-star" developers is interesting. Perhaps the
early, heady year or so of an xBase language's existence is sort of "easy
pickins'" -- where, if a well-known third party does _anything_ useful, it'll
get sales. Perhaps he's going to troll the waters of the early FoxPro 2.0
year(s).
I mean, being bitter about the NG/TRH deal is one thing, but saying that is
evidence of hostility to third parties doesn't seem fair; that's not a third
party deal, that's the ULTIMATE third party deal! Can you imagine DCLIP being
distributed with every copy of Clipper? How many of you third parties have
pursued an OEM deal with Nantucket? That would seem like hardball to me. Not
exactly easy pickins.
There is 1 Reply.
#: 97443 S9/Third-Party
29-Oct-90 21:28:29
Sb: #97430-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: ROGER DONNAY 73227,1225
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Glenn,
You are absolutely right. It isn't easy pickins - and it shouldn't be. So
far, the only person who has been successful in bundling their product with
Clipper is Corey Schwartz, and his wasn't even a Clipperspecific product. I'm
not sure that a bundling deal with Clipper is what I want. I enjoy being an
independent "value-added" vendor. It keeps me on my toes and makes sure that
we are always working on the very best possible development platform. If a
bundling deal were "in the bag" I would probably get lazy and not perform to
my best abilities.
The hard day-to-day struggle with plenty of competition is really the best
thing for everyone. I may not sell as many copies of dCLIP as I could in a
bundling deal, but I get much more satisfaction with each copy sold and I have
time to talk to any of my customers who wants and needs personal attention.
Tom Rettig rested on his laurels for far too long. He was in an enviable
position - the "first" Clipper add-on library, but he thought he could ride it
out forever without making improvements to his product - now his product is
public domain. Maybe, in a few years I will be forced to do the same thing
with dCLIP, but I doubt it, because I am a long way from being burned out - I
have too many new ideas that I can't wait to put in the product and a whole
new development language to work with besides - Clipper 5.0. I think I stay
in the game for a while longer.
There is 1 Reply.
#: 97451 S9/Third-Party
29-Oct-90 22:42:49
Sb: #97443-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: robert DiFalco 71610,1705
To: ROGER DONNAY 73227,1225
Just wanted to lend my support and agreement to what you have just said. AMEN.
I'm sure that is why dClip keeps getting better and why you're known for
giving such great support. BTW, if peoples products were bundled with Clipper,
they would also not be able to express their dissaproval for certain things
within the product. You'd have to be more of a politician and I think it is
important ( for our sake ) for NAN to hear these things. Tom can be the star
if he wants but I'll take the gears anytime. It does seem ironic that he would
go saying these "things" after making little attempt to keep up with the third
pary technology around him after his initial release. Funny, but it ended up
in almost EVERY third party library becoming more technologically more
advanced than his. A look at his ASM code should give anyone a clue as to how
much time he actually (didn't) invest in "keeping up" with Clipper and the 3rd
party world around him. I say this as I am readying a 3rd party library myself
for release. Clipper 5.0 gave me the tools to code things in pure clipper code
that I never would have thought to release in S87.
Robert
#: 97431 S9/Third-Party
29-Oct-90 19:57:52
Sb: #97417-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556 (X)
There was an article by the guy who started Tech III (a consulting
firm/developer) in an old issue of the defunct _Programmer's Update_ and his
experience/outlook sounds a lot like Tom Rettig's (as expressed in the press
release).
This person kept saying, in a sense, "I was one of the first guys in L.A.
doing dBase work so I made a killing..." He then went on to describe how he
got killed because he tried to get the same "jump" with dBase IV. Now he's
taking out ads in DataBased Advisor saying things like "We at Tech III support
Fox."
Maybe there are two major strains of third party people; the early miners and
the janitors. I remember when you couldn't walk two steps without hearing
"Tom Rettig's library." When I checked back, it was linkers. I would have
never guessed that the most exciting, happenin' stuff being done in Clipper
would be linking. So maybe Rettig is a miner, and Jud and Michael are
janitors.
They clean up after the rest have skimmed the cream? <g>
There is 1 Reply.
#: 97436 S9/Third-Party
29-Oct-90 20:20:01
Sb: #97431-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
That'd be Richard Grossman. He's okay.
I suspect a lot of us got a bit of a boost because we knew dBASE; me for one.
I'm not as concerned about being first on the block any longer since my
practice is well established and it's not going to be as easy to jump between
dialects, so I'd prefer to let things settle down a bit before committing.
I'll buy your early miners analogy. But there are a LOT of good third-party
LIBs for Clipper by folks that came in in the middle. My beef is that I don't
think we should have to buy a $200 LIB for a $.20 function. Those functions
that most developers will use should be included in the language. The fact
that they're not is a concession by Nantucket to third-party developers and is
short-changing their customers. That hurts all parties more than it helps,
IMO, because it costs Nantucket sales of Clipper to those who insist on more
built-in functionality, and therefor also costs the rest of the 3PD's
additional sales that those copies of Clipper might generate.
Paul
#: 97453 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 00:27:24
Sb: #97443-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: ROGER DONNAY 73227,1225
So Roger, you naturally lead me to the next question... do you see any
trends in third party development that are related to the release of 5.0?
It seems as though Clipper 3rdparty development has evolved sort of like
this:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Common sense Low level DOS, BIOS Memory mgt
libs --> video i/o, C & ASM --> Linking --> Specialized --> ???
fanciness, lots o funcs
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: Rettig FUNCky, ProClip Warplink, DBFTrieve,
Blinker CLIP2EB, ESCAPE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know I left out a lot, but do you think I'm off base with this trend? In
any case, do you see a trend away from "big" libraries with lots of
different functions, or more specialized libraries that handle only one
thing? Do you think we'll be seeing products designed around an
object/class design? (Buy our reusable window objects, dialog box objects,
etc).
#: 97518 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 10:31:37
Sb: #97463-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: robert DiFalco 71610,1705
To: Stan A. Hanson 72261,24 (X)
Not so Stan,
Anyone with any xBase experience knows the width and breadth of the
contribution Tom made to the xBase world. I don't think Tom is being discussed
personally. He is being used as an example talking about a much more general
subject of 3rd party vendors, what we or you think they should expect, how
feelings can get involved sometimes and what it's like to be one of the first
ones in the game amid newer companies. It could be anyone Tom just happened to
spark the conversation. I would say that Tom is still an inovator on the xBase
scene. He has done ALOT for FoxBase/FoxPro and will do more to come. I happen
to be very impressed with him and feel sorry if I made it sound like I was
speaking of him directly. To be honest, I don't have a hard time believing
some of the things he said.
Robert
#: 97532 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 11:54:11
Sb: #97463-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Alexander Santic 71327,2436
To: Stan A. Hanson 72261,24 (X)
This thread has been rather soft on Rettig by Nanforum standards. Heaven
forbid anybody else around here should so mix up their emotions and their
technicial assessment of a product without getting cobbered :-) If Tom wants
to speak for himself he can do so easily.
Alex
#: 97597 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 16:51:56
Sb: #97406-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Hi Glenn,
I think reality just caught up with Tom, that's all.
He didn't update his library for a long time. Sales suffered. He thought he
had a natural in with Nantucket for the on-line reader. Obviously he didn't.
He even thought he had a monopoly on int'l distributors for 3rd party stuff
but the distributors got tired of a lib that couldn't sell and he lost that
too. He used to be a big-wig in the Clipper community, but now there seem to
be a lot of "big-wigs" so it's no big deal anymore.
So. He moved on to a new market where he can once again be the big shot with
the best game in town and make lots of money while people worship him.
Can't hardly blame him for his recent actions with the move to Fox and the
accompanying Clipper (and "Clipper-Head") bashing. It makes perfect sense to
me in light of what he used to have and what he once again has.
But, based on those quotes it is obvious that he is either bitter or stupid.
And I don't think he's stupid. The 3rd party market will be bigger than ever
with 5.0, and I think he has a great opportunity to capitalize on his HELP
system in the Clipper market if he wanted it.
Steve
#: 97614 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 18:22:57
Sb: #97463-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Stan A. Hanson 72261,24
You're sort of missing the point. Saying that Rettig's library is out of date
and that he rested on his laurels, etc., etc., is NOT Tom-bashing. Please
understand that discussing what it takes to be in TODAY's 3rdparty market
involves criticism. Criticism is a *good* thing.
Besides, the thread was a response to Tom's press release. I'm sure the press
release speaks for itself, so in a sense, Tom's point of view is represented.
He wrote three messages worth of it. But I hope you understand that this
goes BEYOND Rettig. We're not REALLY talking about Rettig, else I would have
named this thread DISCUSSION: Rettig.
I know it is well-known that Tom is a great guy and is good to his customers.
Although "emotions" have been discussed, we're really talking business.
Are you moving to FoxPro with Tom?
#: 97624 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 19:15:12
Sb: #97597-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117 (X)
Hi Steve - glad you're reading this thread. I was hoping to get more third
parties like you involved.
I definitely see you as one the newer generation, "third-wave", janitor
developers* <g>; doing some very specific things and doing them well. And a
product like Valkyrie, it would seem to me, couldn't exist without some kind
of mature market. I'm sure Tom won't be coming out with, say, Tom Rettig's
FoxPro Decompiler. I mean, when there are enough applications out there
that we need to start decompiling to get the source back...
Do *you* think the market is limited, overcrowded, as Tom said? Products like
SEZ_YOU or PS_ERROR solve some very specific problems; do you think that the
third party market is finite and that programmers are only likely to buy a
couple of expensive libraries before there is a saturation and they start
buying only the "specialty" libraries?
Glenn
*if you missed my reference to the janitors in a previous msg, lemme know
There is 1 Reply.
#: 97637 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 20:23:51
Sb: #97624-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Hi Glen,
Janitor Steve here <g> (I saw the messages),
I don't exactly agree with you about Valkyrie. A product like Valkyrie
depends on the installed base of Clipper to survive - and has little or no
relation to the maturation of the 3rd party market other than the Clipper
developers who are Clipper developers only because of the 3rd party.
SEZ_YOU! and PS_ERROR are more dependant on a healthy 3rd party . . . the more
folks use 3rd party stuff it seems they need these programs more. The 3rd
party has made it possible for folks to easily create competitive commercial
software in Clipper which causes a demand for both of these utilities since
they solve problems with distributed Clipper software. 3rd party libraries
also add another dimension to debugging which also creates an added need for
PS_ERROR.
No, I don't think the market is limited or overcrowded *IN ALL AREAS*. I
think that there is saturation in the metalibrary/windowing areas. But there
are still a lot of new avenues left to exploit. Just look at SEZ_YOU! and
PS_ERROR. Both are unique products. In fact, that has been our biggest
marketing problem - people don't realize they need them! Once they understand
the problems these libraries solve they buy them and can't understand how they
programmed in Clipper without them.
[More]
There is 1 Reply.
#: 97638 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 20:24:03
Sb: #97637-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
To: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
[Continued]
Clipper 5.0 creates more new areas which can be explored and products that
should be developed and marketed.
I do think that there is a limit to the number of libraries/tools most
programmers will buy and use. Most of us buy several then standardise on one
or two major libraries and then use specialized libraries to fill in the gaps
and add the features not found in the mega libraries.
I think Clipper Tools One is a perfect example of The Library That Tried To Be
Everything To Everyone And Failed. Sure, it has a lot of great stuff, but do
you know anyone who bought it who likes the way they do everything? I don't.
I only know a couple of people who have it, but they would like to use parts
from it and parts from other libs - if they could. I think that the 3rd party
developers need to realize that they can't do everything the best. I think
that hyperkinetix is a great example of this - they don't try to do everything
the best - they find the people who can and then license their technology
(WarpLink is bundled with SmartMem from Steve Steiner and WarpMod and SymPakWL
from us [Neil Kingsley and PSI]). Blinker tried to imitate SmartMem and
SEZ_YOU! and didn't do it as well. I understand they have since fixed the
SmartMem type features, but I'll bet it was a bigger hastle to them than
licensing would have been. I know that I differ in this opinion from some of
the 3rd party - but all you have to do is look at the products and make your
own determination.
[More]
There is 1 Reply.
#: 97639 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 20:24:14
Sb: #97638-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
To: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
[Continued]
. . guess I got a little side tracked there <g>. The point is, I think that
specialized libraries are the way to go. They focus on a particular problem
or need and work. Do Everything For Everyone libraries/tools always fall
short in some area.
I can see where some vendors feel that the market is getting smaller, but it's
all a matter or perception. Some part of the market is getting smaller, but
the market as a whole is growing rapidly.
It is also pretty hard for new vendors to break into this market. I remember
when we started marketing SEZ_YOU!. I wanted to get it into european
distribution real bad but wasn't sure how to go about it. I started asking
our european mail-order customers where they usualy bought localy and then I
called and asked if they would cary SY. Can you guess what I heard? That I
had to put my product through Tom Rettig's distribution channels or they
couldn't cary my product because Tom would cut them off. Things are different
now. I have distributors calling me asking to cary my products - and now I
get to choose which ones to use. Yes, the market has matured and it obviously
was a turn for the worse to some vendors. But to the Clipper market in
general it has been a very positive change benefitting the 3rd party vendors
and the Clipper developers who need our tools.
Enough for now <g> . . . Steve
#: 97615 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 18:23:02
Sb: #97481-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: AL ACKER 72007,543
I assure you, no bashing is intended. Analysis and criticism perhaps, but not
bashing. Do you see the difference? If you're referring to Roger's comments,
look again, he's not flaming Tom.
You're a Reference(Clipper) person, aren't you? Do you agree with Tom when he
says the Clipper 3rd party market is limited, overcrowded, and dominated by a
greedy Nantucket that is hostile to third party developers? That's the point
of this thread. I was hoping to get other 3rdparty opinion on this. But to be
honest, I haven't seen the usual crop o' third party dudes around.
There is 1 Reply.
#: 97646 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 20:36:50
Sb: #97615-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ira Emus 76702,672
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
As one of the newest entries in the third party arena I don't feel that
Nantucket is being at all hostile. It also seems to me that the
Rettig/Nantucket problems started earlier than most people realize. My
feeling as a third party xBase developer is that the release of the dBase
professional compiler, Fox 2.0 and Arrago with its Clipper extend hooks is
that the market is about to get much bigger and those of us who deliver
quality products will be able to serve the Clipper community better by having
a larger audience and hopefully more money to put into R & D.
Ira
#: 97655 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 21:17:08
Sb: #97597-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
Speaking of third-party markets.....
Are you planning on supporting FoxPro 2.0? Have a copy yet? If not, why not?
Paul
#: 97661 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 21:48:47
Sb: #97646-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Ira Emus 76702,672
What's Arrago? I suppose I ought to know, but.....
Are you planning on supporting FP 2.0 immediately?
Paul
#: 97662 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 21:50:14
Sb: #97646-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Ira Emus 76702,672
Ira, one of the reasons I purchased Telepathy was because of your repuation (I
used to go to LACUG meetings all the time), and of course, because it was
cheap <g>, but seriously... why did you and Dave decide to do a comm library?
Surely, you must have asked yourselves "can we make money on this with other
big-name comm libaries out there?" I realize your library is new and you're
still "breaking in". You said at Devcon that most of your users seem to be
former Silvercomm users, but was that your reason for doing Telepathy?
#: 97656 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 21:21:42
Sb: #97615-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Glen,
"have not seen the usual crop o' third party dudes around."
That is because this is a sensative issue to us. For one thing, it's hard to
discuss Tom's transition without sounding like you are flaming him. That's
just the way it is. I think we can discuss it without flaming or personal
attacks - but any description of the transition does sound like a flame of one
sort of another. It's not. I don't think anyone in this thread has intended
to flame or attack him.
I think some of us feel much like he does on some issues (Clipper Tools One
has several vendors real mad - personally I think it was a dumb move but can't
fault them for trying).
Nantucket (or at least the owner) is involved in the 3rd party market right
now, in more ways than one if what I've been told is true (and I have no
reason to doubt what I have been told - it would be a sound business move). I
suspect this concerns some vendors and as such they are more likely to lay low
when it comes to criticising Nantucket.
And most importantly. Most of us are busy getting our 5.0 stuff updated! (but
I need these Nanforum diversion to stay sane <g>)
Steve
#: 97663 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 21:50:23
Sb: #97639-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
Steve, thanks for the wonderful, rambling comment.
I meant Valkyrie as an example of a product that can't really exist until the
"third wave", as I sort of ineptly charted it. You need lots of .EXEs out
there and penetration into businesses, etc., for someone to say "hey, I sure
could use a decompiler." That's what I meant. Who would have needed Valkyrie
in 1986? Obviously, some people would, but not nearly as many as need it now.
Maybe I've got it wrong.
It's fascinating what you said about Rettig's alleged power over the European
channel, at least at the time you were trying to get some distribution. Also,
you say it is hard for new vendors to break into the market. What would you
say are the major hurdles? I would think the smaller companies have the
biggest problem setting up distribution, sales/tech support, etc. Lots of
time and overhead involved. I'm sure a lot of folks think marketing is the
biggest hurdle, but it would seem that you can't make it if you can't get the
product into people's hands, including those across the Atlantic. Am I wrong
on this?
#: 97670 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 22:29:23
Sb: #97656-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
Good point about third party dudes being sensitive not to flame anybody, or
Nantucket. I'm trying to steer away from any talk of Rettig, really.
#: 97680 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 23:09:45
Sb: #97615-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Pedro P. Polakoff [3PS] 73157,2412
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Yes, Yes, Yesy, Maybe, Yes & Yes
3P
#: 97671 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 22:49:57
Sb: #97663-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Glenn,
(maybe we should rename this the Glenn and Steve thread <g>)
Yes. The bigger the installed base the more demand for any product. Since
Valkyrie appeals to a small segment of the market we are especially dependant
on a large potential market.
Yea, the Rettig/Distributor thing really took me by surprise at the time too.
I have always wondered if that was really the way it was or if someone just
misinterpreted something Tom said or . . . I never did contact Tom about
distributing my stuff (didn't want anything to do with that type of
distribution arrangement).
For us the biggest hurdles were/are production and advertising budgets,
advertising lead time and product completion estimates, and order fulfillment.
Right now we are at a point where we do a decent volume, but not quite enough
to justify another person - but it's just enough that it is a hastle. When we
launch our 5.0 products we expect that to change.
Int'l advertising and distribution has been tricky too. But we are getting
better at it. Just gotta do your best and learn from it. Perhaps someone
more experienced in this area will be willing to jump in with some pointers
for us all.
Steve
#: 97672 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 22:50:03
Sb: #97655-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
To: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
Hi Paul,
Yes we are thinking about FoxPro and some others as well.
No, I don't even have a copy of FoxPro yet. No time yet. Once we get the 5.0
stuff out the door we will take a look. Right now my focus is on our current
product line.
I understand severl of the Clipper 3rd party already have or are in the
process of porting stuff to FoxPro right now. I'm told that the Fox user has
a different perspective when it comes to buying add-on stuff. Should be
interesting . . .
Steve
#: 97676 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 23:04:26
Sb: #97661-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ira Emus 76702,672
To: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
Arrago or however it is that it's spelled is the new Quicksilver. Yes, as
soon as I can get my hands on it and beat Dave into porting it. I hope the 2.0
interface is better than the current one. I asked him to port to FoxPro 1.0
and he sort of look at me funny and said "Please tell me I don't have to." I
think he thought it was about the worst possible interface he could think of.
Ira
#: 97677 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 23:04:34
Sb: #97662-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ira Emus 76702,672
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Well, Dave wrote notifications for me 2 years ago for a project that could not
be done in Clipper with the currently available tools. I finally decided that
I was willing to give the technology to the rest of the Clipper world and Dave
became availible and willing. I've used the rest of the Comm libraries and
know how good Dave is and that we are not going to have any competion in the
technical end. All we have to figure out is the marketing. I'm not so worried
about Silvercomm, but Pinnacle has enough money to make a major dent even with
a bad product. The free blurb in the last DBMS and this weeks PC Mag haven't
hurt either. Also I figure that my reputation and the number of people I know
was enough to get this thing off of the ground. Biggest problem now is
figuring out how to spend the marketing money.
Ira
#: 97673 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 22:50:06
Sb: #97646-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
To: Ira Emus 76702,672
Well said, Ira.
Just wanted to agree with you.
Steve
#: 97683 S9/Third-Party
30-Oct-90 23:44:46
Sb: #97615-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: AL ACKER 72007,543
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Hi Glenn,
No I'm not worried about someone "flaming" Tom.... will have to live with
his choices... He has a right to do what he feels best. He's paid his dues.
The Nantucket/Rettig story is a _very_ long one and I will not talk about it.
But I can understand why he's done what he has... I may not agree with it but
I understand. And I'm sure most of the 3rd party know what I'm talking about.
As far as the market being limited... in most ways no, but some time there are
complications.
One thing I can assure you of, and I'm sure anyone who knows me will agree, I
am 100% behind the Clipper 3rd Party. It's one of the strongest assets
Nantucket has.. I hope they always keep that in mind. If I come across a
great product, I'll plug it whenever I can. If someone sends me a product to
review in Reference(Clipper) and the review turns out good, it gets
printed...period. I am _NOT_ a "Nantucket provides _everything_you could ever
want" type. Can you imagine what Summer '87 would be like without any 3rd
party products!!!
Nantucket provides a great platform, the 3rd party provides tools. People
have a lot to choose from and I think that's great.
Now what's gets old.... is some of the "marketing" I see on this forum. I'm
sure you know what I'm talking about. It doesn't need to be said in public. I
think that products should stand on their own. That's just the way I feel,
maybe I'm just not into 90's marketing. I'm not saying that was the case on
this thread,it just for a moment started to sound like it.
Now if you're hoping to get any STRONG 3rd party opinions on this, don't hold
your breath. They have interests to look out for and I really don't blame
them.
Now back to work.
Cheers, Al
#: 97689 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 00:42:48
Sb: #97676-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Ira Emus 76702,672 (X)
What, Dave likes the .BIN interface for dBase III+ better? <g>
There is 1 Reply.
#: 97702 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 04:27:30
Sb: #97689-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ted Means 73067,3332
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Unfortunately, the .BIN interface for dBASE III+ is also used by FoxPro. I
ported one of my products to FP and it was *not* fun. FoxPro has many, many
weaknesses and it would be extremely difficult to do anything serious with it.
Ted Means
#: 97725 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 06:29:19
Sb: #97676-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Ira Emus 76702,672 (X)
By 'interface' you mean the equivilent of Clipper's extend system, right? 2.0
is supposed to be very simple, although not exactly like Clipper. I've heard
of the command, SET LIB TO.
Paul
#: 97692 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 00:43:02
Sb: #97677-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Ira Emus 76702,672 (X)
I assume you won't be sticking a quarter page one-color ad in the back of DBA
with all those big color ads for SilverComm and CommTools lying around up
front? Are you planning a different strategy?
There is 1 Reply.
#: 97747 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 08:04:19
Sb: #97692-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ira Emus 76702,672
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
I think I'll take the fifth!!!! (and not of Gin)
#: 97690 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 00:42:51
Sb: #97680-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Pedro P. Polakoff [3PS] 73157,2412
I understand "yes" and "maybe" but what is "yesy"?
#: 97691 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 00:42:57
Sb: #97671-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117 (X)
I've heard that in the new Europe (post 1992), the old practice of signing
exclusive distribution agreements for a particular country will be outmoded,
because people will be able to buy products from distributors in any country
they want. Sounds like mail order to Europe will be profitable in that case,
since it'll work a lot more like the U.S.
#: 97726 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 06:29:28
Sb: #97672-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117 (X)
No doubt about the difference in perspectives. dBASE and Fox users haven't
had much to choose from so it's not ingrained that they just pop for a LIB
when they need something. OTOH, they're used to a lot more being built-in to
the language, so the little dinky utilities won't sell very well.
There are a lot of ifs, but FP 2.0 *could* become the best of both worlds. IF
it's not a pig, if they give the programmer more control than with 1.0, if....
Paul
#: 97695 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 01:37:47
Sb: #97597-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Leonard Zerman 73340,55
To: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117 (X)
"Great sprits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds..." (Albert Einstein) Len
There is 1 Reply.
#: 97840 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 14:18:44
Sb: #97695-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Tom Rettig 75066,352
To: Leonard Zerman 73340,55
This is why I don't participate regularly in the forums. I don't know how you
all do it, but I can't do this and get enough work done at the same time.
Anyway, let me respond to some of the comments and guesses:
To Everyone: This response is all _just_ my opinion. I do not wish to
include IMHO in every sentence, so please keep this foremost in mind when
reading this stuff. Whatever anyone thinks of it reflects their opinion. To
each his own; no hard feelings, burnt bridges, or lost friendships. Both Fox
and Clipper will be around for a while and thank goodness we all have a choice
these days.
To Don Caton: I did not come up with the extend system concept, Brian Russell
did. He and I discussed design ideas and collaborated on a couple of the
extend library functions. Yes, I am miffed at Nantucket. No, I did not mean
to state or imply that Clipper is not an open environment.
To Larry Fox: Close, but what I thought I said (or meant to say) was that
there is no _long-term_ future in Nantucket's aftermarket. Sure, Clipper 5
leaves plenty of holes to fill, but Nantucket cannot go down that path for
long and remain competitive with products that have all the popular stuff
built in. I, and my consulting clients, do prefer FoxPro because it lets me
write less code and get the same job done quicker and cheaper than Clipper.
Upgrade headaches are confined to one vendor, not several.
To Paul Ferrara: FoxPro (and others not publicly announced) are moving toward
having everything needed built in to the core product through virtual
techniques that reduce size concerns to the hard disk. This will cause a
shakeout in the current C and Clipper aftermarket vendors porting their stuff
to Fox. It will be a challenge to come up with something useful with enough
longevity to pay off.
(continued)
There are 2 Replies.
#: 97841 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 14:19:38
Sb: #97840-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Tom Rettig 75066,352
To: Tom Rettig 75066,352 (X)
(continuing)
To Don Caton: Marketing (not technical) competition from the language vendor
is far different than competition from another, more equally resourced,
third-party vendor. I do not choose to play David with Golieth (just a
business decision). Fox's aftermarket will probably never reach the size of
Clipper's current one because Fox has so much built-in. This is different, in
my view, than actively competing in their own aftermarket with an extra-cost
add-on.
To Roger Donnay: Yep, I am emotional about this. Nope, I never expected
anyone to treat me differently than anyone else with the same abilities. We
all trade on our names, and now you're stuck with being a "star" too, Roger.
Watch out for the young codeslinger waiting for you around the next corner.
To Glenn Scott: Trolling is usually more profitable in uncrowded waters.
Early years of very successful software products are usually a tidal wave.
After two tries, I may just be getting the hang of this game. Yes, it's
hardball; in my experience, that's what business is. None of it's easy
pickins, but varieties of opportunites abound in this infant industry.
To Roger Donnay: Please don't assume what I think. It was neither "resting
on my laurels" nor thinking products don't need upgrades. I made (and make)
business decisions; sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. If you want to
know my motives in the future, please ask.
To Robert DiFalco: >>Funny, but it ended up in almost EVERY third party
library becoming more technologically more advanced than his.<< You may not
believe this, but sincerely, thanks!!!
To Glenn (Darwin) Scott: Your theory of Clipper library evolution is right
on; nice overview. There will be some market in the beginning for
Object/Class libraries, but will not survive as a commercial venture because
too much will become available for free or will be bundled with the core
language product.
(continued)
There is 1 Reply.
#: 97843 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 14:20:27
Sb: #97841-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Tom Rettig 75066,352
To: Tom Rettig 75066,352 (X)
(continuing)
To Stan Hanson and Al Acker: Thanks for the defense. I don't feel bashed,
just misunderstood. But then, I didn't cover everything in the press release.
To Paul Ferrara: >>what's he done lately?<< I just cowrote and costarred in
an episode of The New Lassie. If you want a _real_ giggle, check your local
TV stations (not cable) on Saturday, November 17, around 9 or 10 in the
morning. Watch Lassie use a mouse! I also wrote the program Lassie uses --
in FoxPro.
To Glenn Scott: Janitors live longer than miners.
To Steve Klingler: >>I think reality just caught up with Tom<< What's
reality?
To Steve Klingler: My "international distribution channels" consisted
entirely of Hans Schnelreider in Germany, Graham McKechney in Australia, and
John Galvin in the UK. They are/were all _very_ _small_ developers (about my
size) and our deal was co-publishing, _not_ distribution. They did support
and also sold through the normal distribution channels. None were exclusive
deals, all were on handshakes. Other than these, the only international
distribution deal I have ever done was an exclusive one with Nantucket in the
UK. I was extremely dissatisfied with their performance and terminated the
deal, as our contracted allowed, after one year (or was it two?). I have
never sold, distributed, or profited from anyone else's products except my own
either here or abroad (I don't want that type of arrangement either). And, I
have never prevented or attempted to prevent, _any_ product from being sold
_anywhere_!
To Len Zerman: "Great spirits drink great spirits." [symbol crash] In this
context, "symbol crash" is a sound cue, not a compiler term.
To Barry ReBell (in a hospital in Germany): Hey, hurry the f**k up and get
better will you? I got no one else to feud with these days, and you still owe
me a dinner at Charlie Browns!
Okay, now I gotta get to the work that pays the rent.
Peace and prosperity, Tom
There are 2 Replies.
#: 97841 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 14:19:38
Sb: #97840-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Tom Rettig 75066,352
To: Tom Rettig 75066,352 (X)
(continuing)
To Don Caton: Marketing (not technical) competition from the language vendor
is far different than competition from another, more equally resourced,
third-party vendor. I do not choose to play David with Golieth (just a
business decision). Fox's aftermarket will probably never reach the size of
Clipper's current one because Fox has so much built-in. This is different, in
my view, than actively competing in their own aftermarket with an extra-cost
add-on.
To Roger Donnay: Yep, I am emotional about this. Nope, I never expected
anyone to treat me differently than anyone else with the same abilities. We
all trade on our names, and now you're stuck with being a "star" too, Roger.
Watch out for the young codeslinger waiting for you around the next corner.
To Glenn Scott: Trolling is usually more profitable in uncrowded waters.
Early years of very successful software products are usually a tidal wave.
After two tries, I may just be getting the hang of this game. Yes, it's
hardball; in my experience, that's what business is. None of it's easy
pickins, but varieties of opportunites abound in this infant industry.
To Roger Donnay: Please don't assume what I think. It was neither "resting
on my laurels" nor thinking products don't need upgrades. I made (and make)
business decisions; sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. If you want to
know my motives in the future, please ask.
To Robert DiFalco: >>Funny, but it ended up in almost EVERY third party
library becoming more technologically more advanced than his.<< You may not
believe this, but sincerely, thanks!!!
To Glenn (Darwin) Scott: Your theory of Clipper library evolution is right
on; nice overview. There will be some market in the beginning for
Object/Class libraries, but will not survive as a commercial venture because
too much will become available for free or will be bundled with the core
language product.
(continued)
There is 1 Reply.
#: 97843 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 14:20:27
Sb: #97841-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Tom Rettig 75066,352
To: Tom Rettig 75066,352 (X)
(continuing)
To Stan Hanson and Al Acker: Thanks for the defense. I don't feel bashed,
just misunderstood. But then, I didn't cover everything in the press release.
To Paul Ferrara: >>what's he done lately?<< I just cowrote and costarred in
an episode of The New Lassie. If you want a _real_ giggle, check your local
TV stations (not cable) on Saturday, November 17, around 9 or 10 in the
morning. Watch Lassie use a mouse! I also wrote the program Lassie uses --
in FoxPro.
To Glenn Scott: Janitors live longer than miners.
To Steve Klingler: >>I think reality just caught up with Tom<< What's
reality?
To Steve Klingler: My "international distribution channels" consisted
entirely of Hans Schnelreider in Germany, Graham McKechney in Australia, and
John Galvin in the UK. They are/were all _very_ _small_ developers (about my
size) and our deal was co-publishing, _not_ distribution. They did support
and also sold through the normal distribution channels. None were exclusive
deals, all were on handshakes. Other than these, the only international
distribution deal I have ever done was an exclusive one with Nantucket in the
UK. I was extremely dissatisfied with their performance and terminated the
deal, as our contracted allowed, after one year (or was it two?). I have
never sold, distributed, or profited from anyone else's products except my own
either here or abroad (I don't want that type of arrangement either). And, I
have never prevented or attempted to prevent, _any_ product from being sold
_anywhere_!
To Len Zerman: "Great spirits drink great spirits." [symbol crash] In this
context, "symbol crash" is a sound cue, not a compiler term.
To Barry ReBell (in a hospital in Germany): Hey, hurry the f**k up and get
better will you? I got no one else to feud with these days, and you still owe
me a dinner at Charlie Browns!
Okay, now I gotta get to the work that pays the rent.
Peace and prosperity, Tom
There are 2 Replies.
#: 97871 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 17:08:58
Sb: #97843-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Jeff Jochum 76665,3367
To: Tom Rettig 75066,352
Tom,
Pure class. Thanks for the effort.
HiHo
jeff
#: 97859 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 15:46:26
Sb: #97840-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Tom Rettig 75066,352
Nice reply. I'll check out Lassie. <g>
You seem to be the only one that agrees with me that Clipper is going to
haveto add a ton of built-in functions to stay competitive. Larry doesn't so
it's probably not going to happen real soon.
Lots of luck.
Paul
#: 97879 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 17:42:45
Sb: #97453-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: ROGER DONNAY 73227,1225
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
You have asked a very good question. I have given this a lot of thought
lately. What is the future direction of Clipper add-on libraries? Here is my
forecast:
1. Libraries will become much more specific and less general, ie -
graphics libs, printer libs, comm libs, network libs, database
driver libs, etc.
2. General libraries, such as FUNCKY, PROCLIP, etc will be written
mostly in Clipper with a set of primitive functions which must be
written in C/ASM for performance reasons.
3. Libraries will get smaller, not larger. I am a firm believer that
bigger is not better. Products which do a few things extremely
well will outsell those that do a lot of things only adequately.
4. There will be a shake-out with fewer players but more products.
#: 97887 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 18:17:03
Sb: #97463-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: ROGER DONNAY 73227,1225
To: Stan A. Hanson 72261,24
It may seem that I am "Tom bashing". If that is the way it is perceived, then
I apologize to Tom Rettig and to everyone else because I don't like this kink
of thread any more than you do. I'm only trying to say that Tom is a human
being like everyone else and is capable of making mistakes in judgement. I
have certainly made plenty of my own. In my opinion, Tom's current state of
mind in regard to his relationship with Nantucket is not serving him well. I
too, have been in this state of mind and have felt the same kind of betrayal,
and I had to look in the mirror and come to grips with the hard, cold fact
that it takes two to tango, just like in a marriage.
I wish Tom could be a little more objective, because I don't like to see him
leave the Clipper community. I agree that his products and his company served
the community well, that's why I would like him to stay in the family. He is
so bitter toward Nantucket, however, that he has lost his objectivity about
Clipper (the language) and can't seperate it from Nantucket (the company). I
think it is sad and a great loss because some more Tom Rettig products for
Clipper would be welcomed by all.
#: 97907 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 19:25:12
Sb: #97843-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
To: Tom Rettig 75066,352
Tom,
Thanks for jumping into the thread. Your input is appreciated.
Thanks for the official word on the distributors. Like I said in another
message, I never did verify it with you and didn't know if the distributors I
was talking to had that in a contract or not. Sounds like they were just
loyal to you.
As to my reality comment. You gotta admit some of your comments/statements
about Clipper and/or Nantucket have been kinda silly and probably emotionaly
provoked. Nothing anyone else wouldn't have done in your situation, but it
painted a picture (in my mind) that you were not being very realistic. I
guess that's one of the pitfals of our information age - you hear about a lot
of stuff, but you don't always get the whole story.
Anyway, the point of the thread has been how the 3rd party is and has changed.
You are a perfect example of someone who was in early but has now left. The
reasons we keep hearing for your leaving are counter to the beliefs of the
rest of the Clipper 3rd party (or we would have left also) so naturaly it
makes for good discussion. I hope that the comments are taken in the light
they are intended and not as an attack on you in any way.
I'll be watching for that lassie episode (geez, I haven't watched lassie for
years, didn't even know you were still making them).
Steve
#: 97908 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 19:25:21
Sb: #97859-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
To: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556 (X)
Not entirely true. Lots of us think that Nantucket needs to beef up the
features list to stay competitive. But we also want to see it done right.
Clipper Tools One was not the right way. If those capabilities were built
into the product to begin with it would be one thing - but an add-on product
from the vendor which has to replace the terminal drivers? Get serious. That
should have been there in the first place. I have also heard a lot of
complaining about the bugs and incompatibilities.
I think we will start to see a lot of the nifty interface features once the
Windows and OS/2 versions come out. Problem with DOS is that there is not a
standard so packaging neat windowing capabilities (for example) is tougher to
do since everyone has their own ideas of what they should look like and do.
What other "built-in functions" do you have in mind other than user interface
stuff? What does Fox give you that Clipper does not other than their
windowing interface?
Steve
#: 97926 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 20:52:38
Sb: #97859-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Keith A. Wire 73760,2427
To: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
Paul, you aren't alone. I think Nantucket should have included ALL, yes ALL of
the "Clipper Tools One" functions in Clipper 5.0. I know it would make most of
the third-party people furious, but hey it's a jungle out there.
It only makes sense that a developement language such as Clipper 5.0 should
have functions to do windows, powerful string and date functions, and the
ability to make/create directories etc. WITHOUT asking the developer to go
shopping.
Including most of the needed functions in the language would give 5.0 a
broader base as a STANDARD that then the third party people could develope all
those fancy specialized functions using the new objects they provided.
Before someone gets the wrong idea, I am not bashing Nantucket, this is just
my opinion, but I really do think Nantucket made a bad marketing decision.
Just look at Ashton Tate and Fox, and see how many functions & ideas were
developed by Nantucket and the third party developers that are now a part of
their basic language. Why should Nantucket be any diferent? Like I said, it's
a jungle out there and Nantucket better make sure they are carying the biggest
gun.
Keith
P.S. Larry, if you are listening, it is still not to late. You could send
everyone who has 5.0 the new CT1 free.
#: 97909 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 19:25:27
Sb: #97879-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
To: ROGER DONNAY 73227,1225 (X)
Nice to see I'm not alone in my views.
Steve
#: 97939 S1/General Information
31-Oct-90 22:24:49
Sb: DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: AL ACKER 72007,543
To: ROGER DONNAY 73227,1225
Hi Roger,
I'm trying out CIM for the first time so if this note is garbage... you'll
know why. Anyway I agree with your first 3 points.
But so far I'm not seeing the last one.... I've seen some good stuff
lately from "newcomers". What we may see is alot of turnovers due to
lack of staying power. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Are you going to Comdex? We never finished that conversation and I'm still
interested.
Cheers, Al
#: 97940 S9/Third-Party
31-Oct-90 22:27:13
Sb: #97908-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
You can take any general purpose 3rd-party LIB and the ones that should be in
the language in the first place just stand out and hit you. As for Fox's,
well, the list is just too long to mention. IMO, Nantucket copped out in
order to avoid ticking off 3rd-party providers and it'll cost them and the
latter mucho sales down the road.
Re Windows and OS/2... Oh, that we should live so long. <g>
Speaking of windows (not Windows), I've gotten a peek at a forthcoming LIB and
it's going to blow everyone away. *Very* slick sh*t.
Paul
#: 97947 S9/Third-Party
01-Nov-90 01:18:07
Sb: #97885-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Leonard Zerman 73340,55
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
On h**l of a lineup of quotes you have there. I need to get a better quote
books. Mabey a little Zen or Tao.
Len
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98007 S9/Third-Party
01-Nov-90 08:22:21
Sb: #97947-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: LARRY DYSERT 72417,1703
To: Leonard Zerman 73340,55
Len, Not to you personally but just tagging a message to all onto this thread.
I don't have any opinion to offer, just offering a comment that this thread
has been one da*m good bit of interesting reading. And thanks to Tom for
contributing as well.
Cheers...
Larry
P.S. Len, thanks for an interesting install procedure <g>
#: 98031 S9/Third-Party
01-Nov-90 08:58:47
Sb: #97940-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Don Caton 71067,1350
To: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
Paul,
Agreed that some of the things missing from Clipper stick out like a sore
thumb. As (IMO) advanced as 5.0 is, you still can't determine the current
drive letter without a 3rd party lib or some real ugly workaround. Public
domain stuff to do that is easily available, but you shouldn't have to go
outside the supplied core language for those kinds of basic things.
I like Keith's idea of giving out CT1 with every copy of 5.0. I don't think
it would bother too many 3rd party people, especially if they (Nan) decided to
stay out of the add-on library market in the future. The 3rd parties can
concentrate on coming up with better and more focused libraries.
BTW, is this windowing library you're talking about for Clipper or the
upcoming Fox?
Don
#: 98014 S9/Third-Party
01-Nov-90 08:40:15
Sb: #97908-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Samuel S ElyacharShuster 72657,1121
To: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117 (X)
Steve, a comment here....
I am not of the opinion that Clipper needs a heck of a lot more functions,
and my reasoning is simple. Look at Fox. Yes, look at that everything but
the kitchen sink. Yes, look at how SLOWLY it updates the screen when doing
M/U. Hell, I've had people say "Hmmm, reminds me of when I used to use a
1200 baud modem." In my opinion, ALL that overhead of ALL those cute
functions get in the way! WTF cares if it indexes or batch replaces in
half the time that Clipper does, if it takes three times as long to show the
results?
If I add a function from a 3rd party library, I am responsible for
whatever overhead it causes. Yes, maybe the library could have been written
better, but it was still MY CHOICE to use the function, no one is putting a
gun to my head. Fox simply is not the same as Clipper. It has those
monstorsly bloated overlays it must page in and out. Someone should tell
these guys about WarpLink, It'll solve a BUNCH of their overlaying
problems (it DOES do other things besides Clipper, and SWELL!)... something
tells me they are using generic P or .RT Link.
Yeah, there are times that I think there are a few things missing in
Clipper, but not a whole ProClip/FUNCky/IDL for after-death-experience-of-
your-choice sake.
Better Clipper be lightening fast at what it already does. Then if I slow
it down by adding needless kitchen sinks, I'll at least have the oppertunity
to optimize. Can't gut a Fox if it's locked in a box.
And So It Goes
SAMES
#: 98061 S9/Third-Party
01-Nov-90 10:48:43
Sb: #98014-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
To: Samuel S ElyacharShuster 72657,1121
Hi Sames,
I don't use Fox so I don't know what all they have in there, and I didn't mean
to say that I think Clipper should add everything Fox has (I think Paul said
something close to that, but I didn't).
However, I do think they should add some things and parts of Clipper Tools One
is a great example.
In 5.0 if/when they give us the API's we will be able to write replacement
drivers for things like terminal io and databases. Once we can do that, it
solves a lot of the problems because the 3rd party will step in with
specialized drivers for different applications.
It seems to me that there are a number of features which don't involve the
API's but which most programmers still need. Some of the more obvious
includes the ability to create directories or bitwise manipulation.
I'm not complaining. I think Clipper is a great platform and I don't mind
buying 3rd party stuff (it is usually a tremendous value). Just making an
observation.
Steve
#: 98072 S9/Third-Party
01-Nov-90 11:51:27
Sb: #97926-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Cliff Korth 74000,2555
To: Keith A. Wire 73760,2427 (X)
I'm not worried about CT1 yet. I'd prefer a 5.0 bug fix first. And then they
can send me CT1 as a "thank you for your patience" offering.
#: 98088 S9/Third-Party
01-Nov-90 13:40:16
Sb: #97885-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Jim Beyer 76424,3377
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
My current favorite is Robbs Law:
"For every idiot proof system, a new and improved idiot evolves to defeat it."
#: 98171 S9/Third-Party
01-Nov-90 22:36:40
Sb: #98031-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Don Caton 71067,1350 (X)
Windows for Clipper 5.0. Very nice.
Paul
#: 98173 S9/Third-Party
01-Nov-90 22:36:51
Sb: #98061-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Steve Klingler [PSI] 73320,3117
No, that's not what I said. FoxPro has *many* more functions than Clipper.
I don't have any problem with buying specialized libs, or libs that can be
bought more cheaply than I can do the same thing myself. I *do* resent having
to buy add-ons to do basic functions, like getting the current drive or
determining where the program was loaded from.
Paul
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98217 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 07:52:06
Sb: #98173-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Alexander Santic 71327,2436
To: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556 (X)
Why don't we start making a list of basic functions that are missing from the
package. Perhaps some of us can cooperate in creating a small (and free)
NANFOR.LIB to upload here.
Just a thought.
Alex
There are 4 Replies.
#: 98231 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 09:44:39
Sb: #98217-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Alexander Santic 71327,2436
I don't care what Kolterman says about you; you're all right in my book. <g>
Excellent idea! I'll try to go through some of the FP and DB4 stuff and see
which ones make sense, for starters.
Paul
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98258 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 11:42:21
Sb: #98231-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ted Means 73067,3332
To: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556 (X)
I agree! It's a great idea. I'll be glad to contribute any of my stuff that
might be useful.
Ted Means
#: 98306 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 15:27:11
Sb: #98217-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Craig Yellick 76247,541
To: Alexander Santic 71327,2436
>> NANFOR.LIB
Great idea, count me in. Maybe divide functions amoung those who want to
participate?
There are 2 Replies.
#: 98312 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 16:05:22
Sb: #98306-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: AL ACKER 72007,543
To: Craig Yellick 76247,541
Ok you've got all the Btrieve functions....<ggg>
Sorry, couldn't help that.<g> Anyway is it getting cold over there yet ?
Have a nice weekend,
Al
#: 98328 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 18:24:48
Sb: #98306-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ted Means 73067,3332
To: Craig Yellick 76247,541
To all via Craig:
The NANFOR.LIB thing is a great idea, but I think we need to address some
issues so it gets done right. I'd like to throw out a few ideas; everyone
else feel free to agree, disagree, or suggest your own alternatives.
1) We need a volunteer to collect all the functions, put them in a .LIB, and
upload it. More importantly, someone has to agree to maintain the thing and
update it perodically as new routines are contributed.
2) We have to decide whether the library will be PD, ShareWare, or whatever,
and if we charge for it, how do we split up the money. My personal preference
is to make the .LIB free of charge, but in the docs ask people to send a small
donation to a homeless shelter or other charity.
3) Will source be included? Some people may not feel comfortable making
their source code available for the entire world to see. But I think it would
be a bad idea to include source code for some functions but not for others.
4) How do we decide whether or not a particular function belongs in the
library? Do we vote on it, or do we just take anything and everything that
comes along?
I'm sure I haven't covered everything, but you get the idea. Let's hear some
opinions from the rest of you.
Ted Means
#: 98322 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 17:47:05
Sb: #98217-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Keith A. Wire 73760,2427
To: Alexander Santic 71327,2436
OK Alex, here's a few functions Clipper 5.0 is missing that I think should
have been included. They are the functions that I use from CT1 the most.
Diskette / Hard Disk Functions Date /Time Functions
DirName() AddMonth()
DiskName() BoM()
DirChange() BoQ()
DirMake() BoY()
DirRemove() Eom()
DiskFree() EoQ()
DiskReadyW() EoY()
DiskType() LastDayoM()
DriveType() Quarter()
TempFile() SetDate(New System Date)
SetTime(New System Time)
String Functions KeySec(Time Out after x Sec)
MaxLine(find longest line) KeyTime(Time Out @ a Spec. time)
NumAt(count # occurences)
AtRepl() Misc.
PosDel() PrintReady(LPT1,LPT2,LPT3,LPT4)
PosIns() PrintScreen()
PosRepl() SetLastKey()
JustLeft() BootCold()
JustRight() BootWarm()
CountRight() OSVer()
CountLeft()
CharRepl() >>>more String>>> CharRem()
CharNot() CharOdd()
CharEven() RemRight()
RemLeft() ReplAll()
ReplLeft() ReplRight() Some of the string
functions & date functions I can write UDF's for, but most of the others
belong in 5.0. Keith
#: 98324 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 18:06:51
Sb: #98217-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Keith A. Wire 73760,2427
To: Alexander Santic 71327,2436
Oh! One more.
The other night during "trick or treat" while waiting on kids to come to the
door I was reading about FOX's REQUIRED option on their GET command. When
editing a screen full of GETs and the user press <PG-DN> all the GETs with
REQUIRED attached are VALIDated automatically! Now that sounds like an idea
worth copying.
Keith
#: 98172 S9/Third-Party
01-Nov-90 22:36:45
Sb: #98014-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Samuel S ElyacharShuster 72657,1121 (X)
They could add a zillion functions to Clipper and it wouldn't cost a bit of
overhead if they weren't used, right? They do bloat Fox and it shows, but
it's a different animal. The point is to provide the necessary stuff as part
of the language.
Paul
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98201 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 06:41:45
Sb: #98172-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Samuel S ElyacharShuster 72657,1121
To: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556 (X)
Paul,
Maybe I'm hot because we need to define our terms better. Please define
what you mean by "necessary stuff", and if you would, give a small list of
example functions. Could be for a part of that list, and your specific
definition, I agree. I just hate the "everything to everybody" approach
that Fox has, and the obvious bloat it causes.
For that matter, I'm not too happy with the lack of granularity in Clipper
as it is. If all I use are FOPEN, FREAD, FWRITE and FCLOSE... why are
FREADSTR, FRENAME, FSEEK, FERASE and FCREATE brought in too. Ok, ok, I know
all about sharing some base code... I've written in C professionally for
longer than I have Clipper. The point is, just a little here, and a little
there adds up to more bloat than needed. Now... Don't tell me about MACROS
and that baloney. If I have a hidden function in a macro, then I'm
responsible for telling the compiler with an EXTERNAL statement.
And So It Goes
SAMES
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98224 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 08:23:14
Sb: #98201-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Samuel S ElyacharShuster 72657,1121 (X)
All things being equal, it takes less overhead to add functions to Clipper
than it does to Fox. That was my only point. I won't argue the granularity
issue with you. I suppose I agree but it's one of those things over which we
have no control or input. Keith's suggestion about bundling CT was excellent
and I see other also agree.
Paul
#: 98303 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 15:21:31
Sb: #97879-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Neil Weicher 75170,1032
To: ROGER DONNAY 73227,1225 (X)
By golly, you've just described how we've been writing libraries for the last
five years!
Neil
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98331 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 18:56:57
Sb: #98303-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: ROGER DONNAY 73227,1225
To: Neil Weicher 75170,1032
Your right, Neil, that's why I have always liked your work. Your GETIT.LIB is
the only third-party library I still use in ALL my applications. In my
opinion, your work has set the standard for how libraries should be written.
I have learned much from watching you, but many third-party developers still
haven't gotten the message. I am seeing new products on the market that have
function names which will conflict with other third-party products. You'd
think they would know by now to use prefixes on their functions like N_*() as
in your products or DC_*() as in our dCLIP libraries. Now that the thirdparty
market is opening up even more, this will become more important than ever.
#: 98356 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 20:24:24
Sb: #98328-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Ted Means 73067,3332 (X)
Ted (and all)
My feeling is that the LIB should be public domain, just sitting there for the
taking. Just like in the Unix world, where you have public domain software
like KERMIT and stuff available.
The source should be available in a separate .ZIP. People will want to
download NANFORUM.LIB, take some of the fns out, put some others in, modify,
etc. If we're embarrassed to show the source, then we shouldn't put the
function in there!
I would definitely like to volunteer to maintain the LIB. I've got some time
lately, and I'm up here a lot, and I'd love to do something to help all of
you, since so many of you have helped me. I'll even setup a standard for
documenting the thing and keep the doc up to date. I mean it, dudes.
You don't suppose there will be any issue re adding functions that overlap one
of our third party's libraries? Maybe we could just avoid that kind of thing,
I don't know.
Glenn
There are 2 Replies.
#: 98388 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 05:57:48
Sb: #98356-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ted Means 73067,3332
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Great! Thanks for volunteering. I was hoping somebody would because I'd
really like to see this idea get off the ground.
I think we'd have a hard time making a decent library if we had to worry about
not stepping on each other's toes. Almost any function we could come up with
is probably in somebody's commercial library. Most libraries have lots of
functions, so if one or two are duplicated in NANFOR.LIB it's not going to
hurt anyone.
A couple of other issues have come to mind; I think they should be addressed
before the library is distributed.
1) Do we need to have two separate libraries, one for Summer '87 and one for
5.0, or will we have a requirement that any function has to work with both?
Or are we simply going to ignore Summer '87 and make this a 5.0 library?
2) Do C and ASM functions have to adhere to the Extend System, or will the
use of internals be allowed? It's a tough question -- adhering to the Extend
System assures compatibility, but using internals can result in more powerful
functions.
Since you volunteered to set up standards for the documentation, maybe you
could come up with some code standards that address these two issues.
Ted Means
#: 98390 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 06:55:34
Sb: #98356-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Kolterman 76320,37
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
I like the idea a lot. Also agree on your self-appointment as librarian. I
WOULD add that I don't think it should be the kind of thing that allows people
to arbitrarily add to it. I'd like to see more quality control than that.
The librarian should be the only one authorized to re-upload it. You and/or
Ted and/or Craig would be an excellent "governing council." Each contributor
should be advised to include a .DOC file or an adequate block of comments in
the source. The GC should try to guarantee uniqueness of purpose. I don't
think we want five functions that do the same thing.
And yes, definitely PD, with donations to a non-political, health-related
cause such as cancer, heart disease, etc.
I'll help any way I can, but with these hot-shots involved, dunno what'll be
left to add. We might want to compose a NANFOR.CH that allows the use of
compiler macros, a.k.a. pseudo-funcs.
btw: let's not forget to credit Alex with launching the idea.
-sk
#: 98409 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 09:11:56
Sb: #98328-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Don Caton 71067,1350
To: Ted Means 73067,3332
Ted,
Since Glenn has already volunteered to maintain the library I'll volunteer
to create and maintain a Norton Guides file for the thing and a header file
for 5.0's preprocessor (maybe a .TRH file also?). Maybe we could also
include a .CH file with some new commands, like REPEAT...UNTIL,
DEFAULT x TO ..., etc.
I think a naming convention should be established to prevent conflicts.
Maybe something like "NF_"? (I wish the rest of the 3rd party vendors would
do this too.) Same goes for "internal" functions (not Clipper internal)
that these library functions might call. They ought to start with "__nf" or
something. In fact, it might be a good idea to provide some common routines
that all the functions can use (like that five star thing that apparently
fizzled out). No point in having a lot of duplicated code.
The idea of suggesting charatable donations is a good one. It would get too
complicated to make it shareware and deal with money since the thing will
hopefully have many contributors.
IMO, source should be included. Proprietary code and such shouldn't be in
something like this. Since there will probably be some Clipper code in the
library, I think there ought to be one for 5.0 and one for S87, rather than
a common library plus two version-specific extensions.
I don't know about using internals. Certainly they have been very useful in
S87 but hopefully we won't have to dig into them in 5.0. I don't completely
agree with Nantucket's hard-line position of never even thinking the word
"internal", but it might be best to wait until the APIs are released before
making a decision on that. You don't want to include something that may be
difficult or impossible to maintain and upgrade and it's probably not a good
idea to encourage people to rely on such things, especially novice users who
might not understand the risks of using internals.
Don
#: 98374 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 03:32:48
Sb: #98324-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: JOHN J. FATTE' 72537,464
To: Keith A. Wire 73760,2427
Keith:
You're right, REQUIRED in FP is a great idea. Wish that was implemented in
5.0. Perhaps now that you mentioned it someone will pick up on it.
BTW, your suggested functions for NANFORUM.LIB included many date and time
functions from CT1, such as BOQ(). Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the
"quarter" funtions work with calendar years only! This seems like a very
serious drawback since many times (approx. 40%) you'd be working with fiscal
years if you are using these to determine quarter ending and starting dates
for a particular company. I have some that I have developed for my tax
application that I will be happy to contribute to NANFORUM.LIB.
NANFORUM.LIB sounds like one he*l of an idea.
Regards, John.
#: 98357 S9/Third-Party
02-Nov-90 20:24:36
Sb: #98217-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Alexander Santic 71327,2436
NANFOR.LIB is an excellent idea and we should begin doing it immediately.
I've already stated in another reply my desire to do the librarian stuff.
Perhaps the SYSOPS would consider adding a message section for this
user-supported library?
Glenn
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98401 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 08:11:27
Sb: #98357-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: DORMAN BLACKMAN 73047,177
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Glenn, the Nanforum.Lib concept is great and thanks for taking on the
librarian tasks. Just a thought....As Tom Rettig has already made his library
PD, and it already contains a large number of useful functions that work in
S87 and 5.0, it might be a good starting point for developing this library.
Dorman....
#: 98396 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 07:05:44
Sb: #98331-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Neil Weicher 75170,1032
To: ROGER DONNAY 73227,1225 (X)
Well, I have to say, coming from you that's an extra-special compliment. But
I feel that Mr. Rettig (a good friend for a number of years) pioneered the
Clipper 3rd party market.
Keep up the good work.
Regards, Neil
#: 98381 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 05:10:20
Sb: #97615-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Peter Brawley 76226,24
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Glenn,
Rilly, the Clipper after-market is crowded all right, but so what, isn't it
just a measure of opportunity?
I don't like either the Tom-bashing or the Nantucket-bashing. Nantucket
hostile to 3rd-party developers? I don't see it. Forgetful sometimes, not
hostile.
Peter
#: 98384 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 05:22:09
Sb: #97691-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Peter Brawley 76226,24
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
More than that, it's written down somewhere in the documents for
'92 that exclusive distrubution deals are verboten.
#: 98431 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 11:55:31
Sb: #98388-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Don Opperthauser 72007,3463
To: Ted Means 73067,3332 (X)
Ted, I have a couple of suggestions regardiing NANFOR.LIB.
First, forget about 'S87. Concentrate on a few good but basic things for 5.0.
If the Wizard of Ogg will forgive me, go ahead and allow functions which
access internals, but identify which do and which adhere strictly to the
extend system.
#: 98458 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 15:47:34
Sb: #98388-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Ted Means 73067,3332
> Two separate LIBS
I, for one, would be very happy to forget S87 and start this thing
with 5.0. Besides, most functions will be backward compatible
anyway, so S87 users could rework the source and recompile. Also
makes it less work to maintain as S87 dies.
> C and ASM functions
Internals / no internals. Well, perhaps the internals should just
be clearly marked <g> in all the doc, and the source?
As for code standards, we could just simply agree to adopt Nantucket's
publishing standard for all Clipper code that goes in the LIB (although I
don't personally use it), and Nantucket's documentation standard (i.e., the
format of the function reference) for the doc, and use NG for our on-line
reader.
For C/ASM code, it's a little different. Many of you that use the extend
system don't use Nantucket's supplied templates or suggestions on saving
registers, etc. (I read Dirk Lesko's Devcon notes) so perhaps we just take the
C/ASM code as is?
We need to keep it as simple as possible, without being unorganized. As for
"governing council," etc... probably it would be best to just have a bunch of
volunteer "referees", making sure there is a C/ASM expert there, that check
out all the functions to make sure they're okay.
#: 98435 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 12:39:20
Sb: #98390-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ted Means 73067,3332
To: Steve Kolterman 76320,37
I agree that good quality control is important. First rule is, no functions
written by Steves will be allowed . . .
Seriously, thanks for offering your ideas. Your point about making sure each
function is sufficiently unique is well-taken. The only problem is how to
decide which one to keep and which ones to exclude. Maybe we should judge
each one on power, flexibility, and ease of use, and try to choose the one
that will appeal to the most people. Your thoughts?
And yes, let's not forget that this was Alex's idea. Maybe Glenn (or whoever
ends up doing the docs) could credit him in the documentation or something.
Ted Means
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98435 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 12:39:20
Sb: #98390-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ted Means 73067,3332
To: Steve Kolterman 76320,37
I agree that good quality control is important. First rule is, no functions
written by Steves will be allowed . . .
Seriously, thanks for offering your ideas. Your point about making sure each
function is sufficiently unique is well-taken. The only problem is how to
decide which one to keep and which ones to exclude. Maybe we should judge
each one on power, flexibility, and ease of use, and try to choose the one
that will appeal to the most people. Your thoughts?
And yes, let's not forget that this was Alex's idea. Maybe Glenn (or whoever
ends up doing the docs) could credit him in the documentation or something.
Ted Means
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98453 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 15:16:29
Sb: #98435-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Ted Means 73067,3332 (X)
Yes, it was Alex's idea but I was the one doing all the bitching about the
lack of functions. <g>
Paul
#: 98436 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 12:39:34
Sb: #98409-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ted Means 73067,3332
To: Don Caton 71067,1350
Oooooh, I like the help file idea. If the others have no objections, consider
yourself the official help file guy. You might want to coordinate with Glenn
so that the help file and the library complement each other as closely as
possible.
I also like the idea of establishing a naming convention. Using NF_ as a
prefix for all functions sounds fine to me; what do the rest of you think?
I'm not sure what you mean by the "common routines" idea. The Extend System
already has most of the stuff we'll need. Could you elaborate a little?
It looks like we may have a problem with deciding whether or not to include
Summer '87. Some people have suggested supporting it, while others have said
to make it strictly a 5.0 thing. Let's have some more opinions on this,
people, because we can't have it both ways.
FWIW, I agree with your position on the use of internals. Such things are
better left for commercial libraries that can't get the job done any other
way. I view NANFOR.LIB as a library of small, useful functions that perform
simple but vital tasks -- shouldn't be much need for internals if that's the
case.
Ted Means
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98454 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 15:16:34
Sb: #98436-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556
To: Ted Means 73067,3332 (X)
I'd like to see S'87 supported if possible.
Paul
#: 98446 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 13:27:45
Sb: #98328-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: David Richardson 72271,53
To: Ted Means 73067,3332 (X)
Ted,
Yeah, this thing could be good. I think routines written in Clipper MUST have
the source included. ASM and C routines could probably be left to the
author's descression, but I'd like to see all the source for these included as
well. This would make the LIB a good learning tool.
It would have to be free. Trying to deal with the money would be a nightmare
and would undoubtedly lead to problems. The suggestion that people donate
something to a charity is appropriate.
What about limits on functionality? There's probably no way that this thing
is going to compete with most of the larger libs, but what about the smaller
guys. Should any consideration be given to not encroaching on the market for
commercial libs?
Dave R.
#: 98437 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 12:39:46
Sb: #97843-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Jordan Powell 74206,2521
To: Tom Rettig 75066,352
Well, you don't say much here but when you do you really let go.<g> BTW, it is
a good thing your flight left before the pizza, it was lousy.
#: 98466 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 16:09:29
Sb: #98388-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: robert DiFalco 71610,1705
To: Ted Means 73067,3332
Ted,
I think the library should just be for 5.0. All source should be included and
C/ASM stuff _should_ conform to the extend system but can, if needed, use
internals. Just as long as the function is DOCUMENTED as using internals. I
also agree that the .LIB should be freeware. I'd be more than willing to chip
in.
Robert
#: 98467 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 16:11:30
Sb: #98435-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Ted Means 73067,3332
I've captured every message in this thread since I started it days ago, so
don't worry -- we'll not forget Alex is the progenitor.
#: 98469 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 16:11:40
Sb: #98436-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Ted Means 73067,3332
Ted, If I'm not mistaken, it shouldn't be too hard to organize the lib such
that all the source code has a documentation block that will be stripped out
and fed into the NG compiler to make a guide. Isn't that right, Don?
#: 98499 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 20:16:00
Sb: #98446-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Don Opperthauser 72007,3463
To: David Richardson 72271,53
In my opinion, no consideration should be given to encroaching on commercial
libraries. I have bought, and surely will yet buy, a lot of commercial
libraries. It's a free country. If we want to get together and do something
for each other, that's fine. Personally, I don't think what we do will hurt
them much.
#: 98510 S9/Third-Party
03-Nov-90 23:29:31
Sb: #98436-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Kirk Lipscomb 72460,1367
To: Ted Means 73067,3332
Personally I think that only 5.0 should be supported.
- Kirk
#: 98514 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 02:05:45
Sb: #98436-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Matt Maier [NAMI] 75140,1627
To: Ted Means 73067,3332 (X)
Ted,
I like the NF_ function prefix convention. I also agree with Don's __nf
function prefix for internal fucntions (internal to the library).
What I think Don meant by common routines is the types of routines that might
creep into many source files as support functions, token(), parse(), box(),
etc.. generic type functions. All with the same basic functionality but each
author writing their own. This will cause undesired code bloat. It would be
better if as the library librarian, Glenn, and the reviewers saw some certain
replicated section of code or fucntion it would be extracted and placed into
an __nf function which the entire library would use. Sort of like an extend
system for the NanForum library. 'cept this wouldn't be a c/asm only extend
system but would have clipper functions too.
S87 support would be nice in a nostolgic sort of way but do you seriously see
this thing happening before 5.0 is firmly seated? I think that by the time
this is all organized and is actually in the libs here we will all be using
5.x on a regular basis. Unless of course you see this becoming a reality
before January '91; then I would have to say that a S87 version would be a
must. IOW, if the library will be out prior to, or approximately around, the
fix disk then S87 must be supported -- as we will all continue working with it
until the general consensus agrees that 5.0 is safe for production work.
matt
There are 2 Replies.
#: 98522 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 06:06:27
Sb: #98514-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Don Opperthauser 72007,3463
To: Matt Maier [NAMI] 75140,1627 (X)
Don't you think it would be wise to take Nantucket's advice and avoide leading
underscores? For internal functions, instead of __nf, why not use something
like n_f_, and nf_ for the library functions?
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98551 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 11:35:59
Sb: #98522-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Neil Weicher 75170,1032
To: Don Opperthauser 72007,3463 (X)
I would stay away from N_ since Communication Horizons' library functions
begin with N_.
Neil
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98554 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 11:48:04
Sb: #98551-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Don Opperthauser 72007,3463
To: Neil Weicher 75170,1032 (X)
Oops, good point. I don't know why that didn't occur to me since I use your
products. Maybe NF_ for NANORUM.LIB functions and NF__ for the internal
functions. In any case, we need to try to avoid confusion with what others
are doing. Thanks for the reminder.
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98598 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 19:50:37
Sb: #98554-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: STEVE BAKER 72007,3371
To: Don Opperthauser 72007,3463
This lib looks like fun. I would be glad to hack / test as needed. For your
naming convention, why don't you prefix with NF_ for the documented lib
functions, and postfix with _NF for the internals. It would have a nice
symmetry to it.
#: 98540 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 09:17:09
Sb: #98514-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ted Means 73067,3332
To: Matt Maier [NAMI] 75140,1627 (X)
Forgive my density; I see what you mean about the need for support routines
that are available to any function in the library. Since each function will
probably have to be screened by a team of "referees," it will be easy to spot
those that have duplicate code. They could then be reworked slightly to take
advantage of the routine already in the library.
The majority seems to think that supporting S'87 would be a waste of time. But
as I pointed out to Glenn, the majority of C and ASM stuff will work just fine
with both, and some of the Clipper stuff will too. So we'll be able to
provide some level of S'87 support without even trying.
Ted Means
#: 98516 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 02:05:59
Sb: #98436-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Matt Maier [NAMI] 75140,1627
To: Ted Means 73067,3332 (X)
Ted and Alex,
One function I would really like to see, and feel would benefit everyone, is
an intuitive interface to the dos interrupts. Giving the Clipper developer the
ability to build low-level functions without _having_ to go through
C/ASM->extend system him/herself, I feel, would be a great tool.
Being able to pass values for registers, call an interupt, and receive a
return value(s) would alleviate a lot of the frustration I see in some folks.
I visualize a possible calling convention being a simple two-dim array
representing the hi and lo bytes of each register -- with the return value
from the call being the same, an array with the register contents.
nf_DosInt( iInt, aInRegs ) => aOutRegs
matt
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98541 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 09:17:15
Sb: #98516-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ted Means 73067,3332
To: Matt Maier [NAMI] 75140,1627 (X)
That's an excellent suggestion, and I may write that one myself if no one else
does.
Unfortunately, it can't be set up to accept a two-dimensional array. The
Extend System can't deal with arrays beyond one dimension, so a different
method will have to be used. Shouldn't be too hard to figure something out,
though. Thanks for the idea.
Ted Means
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98588 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 16:45:41
Sb: #98541-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Don Caton 71067,1350
To: Ted Means 73067,3332 (X)
Ted,
You could set it up to accept a 2 dim array if the function was a Clipper
function. It could take apart the array and convert it into a single dim
array for the low level function, then the result(s) could be converted back
into a multi-dim array if necessary. It does add some overhead tho. Whaddaya
think?
Don
#: 98527 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 07:30:17
Sb: #98436-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Keith A. Wire 73760,2427
To: Ted Means 73067,3332 (X)
Ted, here are my votes:
1. NANFOR.LIB should be for 5.0 ONLY! - everybody already has 87 libs.
2. NF_ function prefix mandatory.
4. MOST functions should be ASM or C, not just recompiled S'87 functions.
Someone said start with TR Lib as a foundation, I say no. If someone
needs one of these functions, fine use it, but don't clutter up
NANFOR.LIB, keep it lean and mean.
5. Help file would be super, thanks Don!
6. Use Extend System access only for these basic functions. Let the 3-rd
party people mess around with the internals, if they are courageous
enough.
7. The documentation should include a Credits page giving credit to the
person/persons who wrote the function/functions.
I think this is a great idea, but can also see about a dozen people spending a
great deal of time on it. If I can help with the documentation or testing just
give a holler.
Keith
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98552 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 11:37:34
Sb: #98527-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Neil Weicher 75170,1032
To: Keith A. Wire 73760,2427
Please avoid the N prefix since I use internal functions based on N in
Communication Horizons libraries.
Neil
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98568 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 13:23:52
Sb: #98552-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: robert DiFalco 71610,1705
To: Neil Weicher 75170,1032 (X)
Do you think that NF_ would conflict with N_ ?
Robert
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98574 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 15:05:27
Sb: #98568-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Neil Weicher 75170,1032
To: robert DiFalco 71610,1705 (X)
Technically speaking, NF_ and N_ would not conflict. But since I use
variations on N_ alot (e.g., N_X, N_T, etc.), it might be easily confused. I
would suggest an idea originallya suggested by Dirk Lesko: SPI_.
Neil
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98581 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 15:50:31
Sb: #98574-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Dirk Lesko 73500,1244
To: Neil Weicher 75170,1032
I would be willing to contribute all the _spi_xxxxxx() functions to this
effort. It would be a good start for you guys. It is in assembler however so
whoever wants to be the referee might need a little knowledge. In addition,
the _spi_xxxxxx() functions should be maintained seperatly so that the
original purpose of the SPI is not lost.
-->back to 5.0<---
dLESKO
#: 98515 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 02:05:53
Sb: #98446-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Matt Maier [NAMI] 75140,1627
To: David Richardson 72271,53 (X)
David,
I agree with Don, I don't think any special consideration should be given to
3rd party products. This library is not in the same category as those, at
least not from what I have seen it being shaped into so far. This will not
contain meta-functions or have the diversity/specialty that the 3rd party
developers can offer.
These will hopefully be a collection of basic functions that Clipper just
seems to lack. Yes, some functions from some 3rd parties are bound to be
stepped on but if everyone were so careful then there wouldn't already be so
much duplication between 3rd party products -- of the generic type.
matt
#: 98604 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 20:11:42
Sb: #98446-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Steve Davies =CCofNJ= 72517,777
To: David Richardson 72271,53
David,
I think that all source should be included. Not just Clipper source. That's
just my opinion.
As to the question of encroachment, since it won't have advertising behind
it, It won't spread out as far as the commercial libs do. All the non-modem
types will not even be aware of it's existance.
=Steve D=
#: 98585 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 16:07:50
Sb: #98357-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Jo W. French 74730,1751
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Not too sure where to jump in here; however, it looks like:
Alexander Santic: Chairman Emeritus
Glenn Scott: CEO .LIB Maintenance, assisted by Jeff Bryant.
Quality Control: Ted Means.
Documentation: Don Caton.
So..
Alex: Great idea! I'm not a 3PD, but it sounds like a lotta fun<g>.
Glen: Thanks for volunteering.
Ted: Thanks for posting in General Info.
Don: If I can be of help, holler. I've got TRHMAKER and
SofSolution's 'Expert Help'. The idea of a function header
specification for one or the other sounds great. I would tend to go
with a .TRS compatible format and a text converter from that to both
.TRS and NG script. I'll get back to you on this.
General:
a) Somebody knowledgeable comment on CYA re' copyrights; e.g.,
CT1 clones.
b) re' Date functions: Yes on the FY idea; e.g., Fiscal week,
month, quarter. Also work week functions with variable start
day. I'll look over some of my stuff and see if it's applicable.
jwf
#: 98539 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 09:17:02
Sb: #98458-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ted Means 73067,3332
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
It's starting to look like most people think we should forget S'87 and just
make this a 5.0 library, with a few people asking for S'87 support if
possible. Maybe we could do this -- make it a 5.0 library, but in the docs
state whether or not the function will work under S'87. A lot of the Clipper
functions will work with both versions as long as they're compiled under the
proper version, and all the C and ASM functions (those that don't use
internals, that is) will work just fine without even recompiling. How's that
idea sound to everyone?
As for internals, I guess your suggestion is best. Use them if needed, and
mention it plainly in the docs so the function can be avoided if desired. That
way we don't constrain functionality, but we don't get burned by compatibility
problems either.
I like your idea of having volunteer "referees" to check the quality and
uniqueness of the contributions. If no one objects, I hereby volunteer.
Ted Means
#: 98523 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 06:23:43
Sb: #98453-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ted Means 73067,3332
To: Paul Ferrara [CONSULT] 76702,556 (X)
Oh no, you won't be forgotten; right there in the docs it will say
And many thanks to Paul Ferrara for all his bitching and moaning.
Feel better now? <g>
Ted Means
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98548 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 11:05:47
Sb: #98523-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: jeff bryant 76416,1462
To: Ted Means 73067,3332 (X)
Ted, I'm jumping in here a bit late, but if I get the jist of the thread it
looks like your talking about pooling the collective expertise of NANFORUM for
a library of 5.0 specific functions. If this is the case, I'd like to
volunteer my time/efforts in any capacity that they could be used. let me
know.
jeff
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98561 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 12:44:43
Sb: #98548-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ted Means 73067,3332
To: jeff bryant 76416,1462 (X)
Yes, that's exactly what we're doing, and thanks for volunteering your
assistance. Keep on eye on this section for more information.
I think I'll post a message in the General Information section for the benefit
of those people who don't monitor the Third Party section. We might as well
let everybody know what's going on.
Ted Means
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98571 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 13:29:42
Sb: #98561-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: robert DiFalco 71610,1705
To: Ted Means 73067,3332 (X)
What do you think about having a conference some time on the forum. Maybe a
good idea would to be first come up with a preliminary list of functions and
then have people start volounteering to take responsibility for producing this
or that routine?
Robert
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98579 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 15:21:19
Sb: #98571-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Ted Means 73067,3332
To: robert DiFalco 71610,1705 (X)
Sounds fine to me; it seems that there are never any conferences on this forum
so we don't have to worry about finding available conference space. What do
the rest of you think of this idea?
Ted Means
#: 98609 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 21:59:39
Sb: #98541-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Matt Maier [NAMI] 75140,1627
To: Ted Means 73067,3332
Ted,
Sorry, I didn't look at the extend system docs for 5.0 to see if they handle
multi-dimensional array.
matt
#: 98615 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 23:43:57
Sb: #98579-#DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Ted Means 73067,3332
Well, a conference sounds like it could use up a lot of money, not that I
haven't used enough already <g>.
I don't know if this is allowable, but perhaps we could ask the Sysops if they
wouldn't mind devoting a section to NANFOR.LIB. Would make these discussions
a lot easier to follow.
By the way, to any others who are reading, I've been capturing all the
messages on this subject so I know who has kindly offered to volunteer.
Perhaps we should start a new thread called NANFOR.LIB somewhere where it can
be easily spotted.
There is 1 Reply.
#: 98625 S9/Third-Party
05-Nov-90 00:13:59
Sb: #98615-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: robert DiFalco 71610,1705
To: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
Well maybe someone would want to lend the use of their conference phone. Or
maybe a BBS owner would let us use their CHAT facility to conference.
Robert
#: 98618 S9/Third-Party
04-Nov-90 23:44:09
Sb: #98541-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Ted Means 73067,3332
Would it be possible to also be able to set up es:di and all that stuff?
Glenn
#: 100098 S9/Third-Party
12-Nov-90 15:54:50
Sb: #100079-DISCUSSION: 3rd Pty
Fm: Glenn Scott 71620,1521
To: Richard Low (Duke DUMC) 70137,423
Wow, 249 messages. I wasn't counting.
I started this thread a while back because NANFORUM had become inundated with
boring ("I can't find my CL.BAT") stuff and it seemed like the regulars were
dropping away and I suddenly found myself spending money to read stuff I
wasn't interested in.
It just goes to show you that if you want mail, you gotta send mail. I
started by talking about the future of the Clipper third party, and ended a
month or so later with volunteering myself to help maintain a new
public-domain user-supported 5.0 function library.
Highlights along the way included some great messages from Tom Rettig, a rare
visit from Basil Hosmer of Nantucket development, Alexander Santic's and Paul
Ferrara's innocent discussion of a public domain library, and of course, the
rantings of Steve Kolterman, a raving lunatic <g>.
As this thread dies away, it is only fitting that I should direct you to
section 1, where I just posted an announcement about NANFOR.LIB, the new
library we're putting together of public domain code. The subject is
"Comment: NANFOR.LIB."
Personnaly, this thread sort of revived my interest in NANFORUM, which was
waning. I really enjoyed it.
Glenn
(P.S., I have a zipped version of much of the thread; is it worth uploading,
particularly the comments about the future of the third party?)